1 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:05,210 welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:07,890 your host Ryan Sprague this week we 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:09,330 flashback to an interview I conducted 4 00:00:16,010 --> 00:00:12,090 with fellow co-hosts of the original 5 00:00:17,930 --> 00:00:16,020 rogue planet podcast UFO bod pod hosted 6 00:00:20,689 --> 00:00:17,940 by Jason McClellan and Maureen Elsberry 7 00:00:23,990 --> 00:00:20,699 we dove deep into the UFO topic from a 8 00:00:26,150 --> 00:00:24,000 fresh and objective perspective UFO mod 9 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:26,160 pod grew and evolved into what is now 10 00:00:30,919 --> 00:00:29,310 known simply as unknown in this early 11 00:00:33,650 --> 00:00:30,929 episode the three of us invite the 12 00:00:35,389 --> 00:00:33,660 mouths from the South Myka Hanks on to 13 00:00:38,060 --> 00:00:35,399 the show to discuss several cases 14 00:00:39,830 --> 00:00:38,070 pertaining to his own UFO research and 15 00:00:43,850 --> 00:00:39,840 then we dive into his thoughts and 16 00:00:45,910 --> 00:00:43,860 theories on UFOs and philosophy is as 17 00:00:49,549 --> 00:00:45,920 the late Stephen Hawking once stated 18 00:00:51,979 --> 00:00:49,559 philosophy truly dead or can it find a 19 00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:51,989 place in the ever-evolving UFO 20 00:01:08,330 --> 00:00:55,590 phenomenon and the study of it tune in 21 00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:08,340 right now to find out this is somewhere 22 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:11,020 in the skies the Branzburg 23 00:01:30,820 --> 00:01:28,030 [Music] 24 00:01:32,650 --> 00:01:30,830 we're talking about UFOs and aliens 25 00:01:35,860 --> 00:01:32,660 today and I know you make your rounds at 26 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:35,870 some conferences now and again lecturing 27 00:01:40,750 --> 00:01:38,150 on the topic as well and recently you 28 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:40,760 are at this interesting sounding 29 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:42,320 conference called the space and alien 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:45,230 snow fest so love to hear about that 31 00:01:49,570 --> 00:01:47,570 event and your experience there yeah 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:49,580 well first of all I wish all three of 33 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:52,010 you had been there and for the listeners 34 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:54,890 you know we've all the three of us or 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:56,000 I'm sure the four of us you're these 36 00:01:58,870 --> 00:01:57,650 three guys and myself we've we've all 37 00:02:00,490 --> 00:01:58,880 been to a lot of conferences together 38 00:02:01,780 --> 00:02:00,500 that was the very first thing I was 39 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:01,790 thinking while was at this one I kid you 40 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:04,280 not it was a lot of fun part of what 41 00:02:09,430 --> 00:02:07,130 made this fun out was the fact that it 42 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:09,440 was kind of a smaller crowd and so it 43 00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:10,610 was a little more intimate it wasn't in 44 00:02:14,830 --> 00:02:12,620 you know insanely large and it wasn't 45 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:14,840 this into this social movement kind of 46 00:02:20,170 --> 00:02:16,910 thing there was a very interesting 47 00:02:20,949 --> 00:02:20,180 variety of people that my day arriving 48 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:20,959 in California 49 00:02:25,270 --> 00:02:23,090 was very interesting because I arrived 50 00:02:27,340 --> 00:02:25,280 at the airport the twin brother of the 51 00:02:30,250 --> 00:02:27,350 conference organizer picks me up in a 52 00:02:32,229 --> 00:02:30,260 Dodge Challenger and he says I'm here on 53 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:32,239 strict orders from my bro to pick you 54 00:02:36,190 --> 00:02:34,730 and Stanton Friedman up so I told him I 55 00:02:37,810 --> 00:02:36,200 said give me five minutes hug one side 56 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:37,820 this Airport I betcha I can find Stan 57 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:39,410 and I went in the door turned left and 58 00:02:42,670 --> 00:02:40,489 there he was he was he was standing 59 00:02:45,340 --> 00:02:42,680 right there so I went up and I thought 60 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:45,350 you know I haven't seen him since I 61 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:46,850 actually I think the last time I saw him 62 00:02:52,449 --> 00:02:49,250 was the 2013 International UFO Congress 63 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:52,459 I walked up to us Stanton Myka Hanks 64 00:02:56,259 --> 00:02:54,110 here and he looked at me he looked me up 65 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:56,269 and down he goes mica you look you look 66 00:03:05,140 --> 00:02:58,370 so much better than last time and I'm 67 00:03:06,670 --> 00:03:05,150 like thanks but we had such a great time 68 00:03:08,949 --> 00:03:06,680 we get in the car and we're driving out 69 00:03:11,229 --> 00:03:08,959 through California and headed up toward 70 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:11,239 the mountains we're talking about you 71 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:13,010 know hi Nick and Henry and the Center 72 00:03:17,860 --> 00:03:14,690 for UFO studies we're talking about 73 00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:17,870 really got deeply into Philip J class we 74 00:03:21,220 --> 00:03:19,760 began talking about the possible NSA oh 75 00:03:22,479 --> 00:03:21,230 there's one of those code words they're 76 00:03:24,190 --> 00:03:22,489 listening they were listening before it 77 00:03:27,070 --> 00:03:24,200 didn't matter but talking about that 78 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:27,080 talked about the NSA UFO FILES and I 79 00:03:31,449 --> 00:03:29,330 just say this was a unique opportunity 80 00:03:34,089 --> 00:03:31,459 because I've met Stan many times you 81 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:34,099 guys have too but I had never been in a 82 00:03:38,530 --> 00:03:37,010 car with him for five hours and this was 83 00:03:40,630 --> 00:03:38,540 such a treat we 84 00:03:41,979 --> 00:03:40,640 sure that's a different experience five 85 00:03:44,170 --> 00:03:41,989 hours in the car with anyone is a 86 00:03:45,759 --> 00:03:44,180 different experience yeah well it was 87 00:03:48,339 --> 00:03:45,769 just fascinating because we stopped in 88 00:03:50,709 --> 00:03:48,349 Riverside California for lunch and the 89 00:03:54,009 --> 00:03:50,719 weather was like spring here in the 90 00:03:55,899 --> 00:03:54,019 mountains of Asheville and it just felt 91 00:03:57,039 --> 00:03:55,909 so nice it was this outdoor little kind 92 00:03:59,410 --> 00:03:57,049 of dining area there were these little 93 00:04:00,819 --> 00:03:59,420 fountains we started talking about the 94 00:04:02,380 --> 00:04:00,829 Belinda CH disappearance which he had 95 00:04:03,789 --> 00:04:02,390 looked into he'd been one of the very 96 00:04:05,819 --> 00:04:03,799 first people incidentally to bring that 97 00:04:07,990 --> 00:04:05,829 to my attention about six years ago and 98 00:04:09,580 --> 00:04:08,000 of course I've done a lot of research 99 00:04:11,770 --> 00:04:09,590 into that particular case including 100 00:04:14,410 --> 00:04:11,780 having gotten to know Frederick Valenta 101 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:14,420 ch's well it wasn't his widow it had 102 00:04:16,629 --> 00:04:15,650 been his girlfriend at the time Rhonda 103 00:04:19,089 --> 00:04:16,639 rushed and who I've spoken with 104 00:04:21,009 --> 00:04:19,099 personally and still working on that 105 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:21,019 case you know it was fascinating to be 106 00:04:24,879 --> 00:04:22,430 able to share these thoughts 107 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:24,889 Stanton's feelings that maybe there was 108 00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:27,710 if not a direct operative or a clearance 109 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:30,320 kind of capacity that it very least in 110 00:04:33,580 --> 00:04:32,210 an informative capacity that class may 111 00:04:35,620 --> 00:04:33,590 have worked more closely with Central 112 00:04:37,540 --> 00:04:35,630 Intelligence and other kinds of agencies 113 00:04:39,460 --> 00:04:37,550 and so to have this experience yeah it 114 00:04:41,469 --> 00:04:39,470 was surreal to say the least and we got 115 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:41,479 to Big Bear great time at the conference 116 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:43,010 you know Dolan was there at Linda 117 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:45,050 Moulton Howe who also got to spend a lot 118 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:46,490 of time with and had a very interesting 119 00:04:50,469 --> 00:04:48,680 several discussions and plus the 120 00:04:51,850 --> 00:04:50,479 attendees were really great I could even 121 00:04:54,070 --> 00:04:51,860 tell you guys I felt like I almost 122 00:04:56,770 --> 00:04:54,080 connected very spiritually with a lot of 123 00:04:58,659 --> 00:04:56,780 the people there and it was just a 124 00:05:00,820 --> 00:04:58,669 really great time awesome what was uh 125 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:00,830 what was your talk about mica I was 126 00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:02,690 scheduled to give two lectures and 127 00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:04,760 because Super Bowl Sunday fell on the 128 00:05:09,339 --> 00:05:07,190 last day I only actually ended up having 129 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:09,349 time for one though the lecture I gave 130 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:11,810 was called the UFO and nygma and where I 131 00:05:17,379 --> 00:05:13,849 went with this was you know although 132 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:17,389 this was a UFO friendly conference I was 133 00:05:20,350 --> 00:05:18,830 doing the opening lecture and by de 134 00:05:21,990 --> 00:05:20,360 facto interestingly I was doing a lot of 135 00:05:23,890 --> 00:05:22,000 emceeing I try not to do too much 136 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:23,900 emceeing and things that these events 137 00:05:27,460 --> 00:05:26,210 Believe It or Not anymore at least I 138 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:27,470 used to and the reason why is because 139 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:29,690 you know you start doing one thing and 140 00:05:33,550 --> 00:05:31,310 people recognize that one thing as being 141 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:33,560 what should you what you do I was 142 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:35,449 backstage George Noory comes up Micah 143 00:05:39,399 --> 00:05:37,370 great to see you puts his arms around me 144 00:05:41,170 --> 00:05:39,409 have you got your guitar he wanted to 145 00:05:42,730 --> 00:05:41,180 know if I had my guitar you know and if 146 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:42,740 we could do some songs and stuff you 147 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:45,289 know and and I've always told you guys 148 00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:46,610 this you know that typically when I go 149 00:05:50,740 --> 00:05:48,500 to these events I want to go there to be 150 00:05:52,540 --> 00:05:50,750 able to speak and this lecture Ryan was 151 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:52,550 primarily about up 152 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:54,470 science to ufology I actually brought 153 00:05:57,659 --> 00:05:56,210 out some of the very best photographs 154 00:06:01,059 --> 00:05:57,669 that I've acquired over the years of 155 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:01,069 various different kinds of UAP is it 156 00:06:05,499 --> 00:06:04,310 were one involving the alleged Brown 157 00:06:07,749 --> 00:06:05,509 Mountain lights I think this is a 158 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:07,759 natural plasma and there's a skeptical 159 00:06:11,890 --> 00:06:09,080 group including an astronomy professor 160 00:06:14,499 --> 00:06:11,900 here at ASU University in Boone North 161 00:06:16,210 --> 00:06:14,509 Carolina dan Katyn very skeptical guy 162 00:06:18,610 --> 00:06:16,220 someone else a respect an awful lot 163 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:18,620 because of his interest in the Brown 164 00:06:22,270 --> 00:06:20,210 Mountain phenomena for a number of years 165 00:06:24,189 --> 00:06:22,280 and a couple of really good friends of 166 00:06:25,689 --> 00:06:24,199 mine from Bell Laboratories managed to 167 00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:25,699 capture what I feel is one of the best 168 00:06:28,870 --> 00:06:27,830 sequences a photographs that shows one 169 00:06:31,149 --> 00:06:28,880 of the purported Brown Mountain lights 170 00:06:33,969 --> 00:06:31,159 over Table Rock which I think the photo 171 00:06:36,790 --> 00:06:33,979 was taken in 2010 so that was one of the 172 00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:36,800 slides also a unique photograph that was 173 00:06:40,749 --> 00:06:38,449 sent to me by a gentleman who is a 174 00:06:43,390 --> 00:06:40,759 digital archivist he believed it was a 175 00:06:44,830 --> 00:06:43,400 classic daylight disc photographed near 176 00:06:47,649 --> 00:06:44,840 Edwards Air Force Base sometime in the 177 00:06:49,749 --> 00:06:47,659 1950s this photograph as it turns out 178 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:49,759 I'm convinced was a lenticular cloud but 179 00:06:52,809 --> 00:06:51,500 I nonetheless was able to you know 180 00:06:54,159 --> 00:06:52,819 incorporate that into the lecture 181 00:06:56,589 --> 00:06:54,169 because the whole point is to be able to 182 00:06:57,999 --> 00:06:56,599 like the Center for UFO studies many 183 00:07:01,600 --> 00:06:58,009 other groups have done over the years to 184 00:07:03,159 --> 00:07:01,610 try and really learn scientifically if 185 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:03,169 scientific ufology is what we're after 186 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:06,770 here to identify UFOs you know the IFOS 187 00:07:11,260 --> 00:07:08,690 are important to understand so that the 188 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:11,270 genuine UFOs can be better studied and 189 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:13,250 so looking at plasmas looking at you 190 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:14,960 know different kind of atmospheric 191 00:07:18,490 --> 00:07:16,370 phenomena like the lenticular cloud 192 00:07:19,719 --> 00:07:18,500 formations looking at a lot of different 193 00:07:21,309 --> 00:07:19,729 things then finally bringing out a 194 00:07:23,589 --> 00:07:21,319 photograph sent to me by a Texas police 195 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:23,599 officer this occurred in conjunction 196 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:25,310 with the famous Stephenville UFO 197 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:26,990 incident many people always talk about 198 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:28,610 oh you know had been a bunch of flares 199 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:29,930 that were dropped and it was just that 200 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:31,370 one series of lights and that was the 201 00:07:37,959 --> 00:07:35,330 whole incident well that may be true in 202 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:37,969 part that there was a series of probably 203 00:07:40,809 --> 00:07:39,289 what were flares that were dropped in 204 00:07:42,129 --> 00:07:40,819 that people saw these and probably 205 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:42,139 thought that they were a UFO but around 206 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:43,250 that time a lot of people were 207 00:07:47,439 --> 00:07:45,889 describing aerial phenomena around Texas 208 00:07:49,269 --> 00:07:47,449 particularly in the Stephenville area 209 00:07:50,589 --> 00:07:49,279 and this particular police officer had 210 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:50,599 sent this photo to a friend of mine 211 00:07:55,540 --> 00:07:53,330 years ago I'm no longer in touch with 212 00:07:57,339 --> 00:07:55,550 this individual which which is a bit 213 00:08:00,070 --> 00:07:57,349 frustrating because the photograph 214 00:08:01,779 --> 00:08:00,080 although it's maybe not the most Wow 215 00:08:03,850 --> 00:08:01,789 in-your-face UFO photograph it's 216 00:08:05,230 --> 00:08:03,860 interesting nonetheless it does appear 217 00:08:07,870 --> 00:08:05,240 to show two 218 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:07,880 orange amorphous illuminations that as 219 00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:09,860 the police officer described had been 220 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:10,849 hovering over the ground 221 00:08:15,070 --> 00:08:13,370 he and his partner who was in the 222 00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:15,080 passenger seat of the patrol car they 223 00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:17,300 pull up onto this field they see these 224 00:08:20,170 --> 00:08:18,560 two lights hovering and as they begin 225 00:08:21,939 --> 00:08:20,180 ascending he gets out of the car and 226 00:08:23,950 --> 00:08:21,949 grabs of all things he had a film camera 227 00:08:25,450 --> 00:08:23,960 in the car with him which sounds kind of 228 00:08:27,580 --> 00:08:25,460 funny for this day and age but I'll 229 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:27,590 point out that in 2001 the January 230 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:29,150 incident that occurred there in southern 231 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:31,370 Illinois which is known by some as the 232 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:34,010 st. Clair County UFO incident where many 233 00:08:38,620 --> 00:08:36,430 police officers across many different 234 00:08:40,659 --> 00:08:38,630 municipal police departments observed 235 00:08:42,790 --> 00:08:40,669 one of these large triangular objects 236 00:08:45,220 --> 00:08:42,800 the police officer that managed to get a 237 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:45,230 photograph had a Polaroid camera in his 238 00:08:50,170 --> 00:08:48,170 car so it's strange in retro as that 239 00:08:52,150 --> 00:08:50,180 sounds it seems that law enforcement 240 00:08:54,490 --> 00:08:52,160 agencies you know until within maybe the 241 00:08:56,079 --> 00:08:54,500 last 15 years or so it's been standard 242 00:08:57,579 --> 00:08:56,089 practice to keep film cameras in the car 243 00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:57,589 with them I hope maybe by now many of 244 00:09:01,480 --> 00:08:58,970 them are using digital cameras or better 245 00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:01,490 yet phones now but I digress this 246 00:09:04,900 --> 00:09:02,990 photograph not only shows these two 247 00:09:08,170 --> 00:09:04,910 globes that were spotted by the officers 248 00:09:09,970 --> 00:09:08,180 ascending toward a craft is this craft 249 00:09:11,980 --> 00:09:09,980 that's illuminated by three points of 250 00:09:13,930 --> 00:09:11,990 greenish light and what's even more 251 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:13,940 interesting to me this is the the 252 00:09:18,490 --> 00:09:16,250 optical physicist physicist in me Bruce 253 00:09:19,690 --> 00:09:18,500 Maccabee might be pleased when he if you 254 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:19,700 heard that I spotted this but in this 255 00:09:24,250 --> 00:09:21,290 photograph while people are generally 256 00:09:26,079 --> 00:09:24,260 looking at the the blatant objects there 257 00:09:28,269 --> 00:09:26,089 are three smaller points of illumination 258 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:28,279 that are in the lower right hand area of 259 00:09:31,780 --> 00:09:30,410 the photograph which is mostly dark and 260 00:09:32,590 --> 00:09:31,790 it was you know at night and the 261 00:09:34,269 --> 00:09:32,600 photograph was taken 262 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:34,279 aiming upward looking up into the sky 263 00:09:38,769 --> 00:09:36,470 and it seems evident to me that the 264 00:09:40,569 --> 00:09:38,779 three points of visible light and then 265 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:40,579 the apparent craft they were ascending 266 00:09:46,569 --> 00:09:43,760 toward I think are represented although 267 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:46,579 in reverse positioning by three points 268 00:09:49,269 --> 00:09:47,690 of light which are obviously the 269 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:49,279 reflection of the lights off of the lens 270 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:50,690 of the camera itself and I know this 271 00:09:56,230 --> 00:09:52,490 because I've actually observe this in 272 00:09:59,019 --> 00:09:56,240 similar photographs we've managed to in 273 00:10:01,750 --> 00:09:59,029 in the non antagonistic sense of the 274 00:10:03,610 --> 00:10:01,760 term we have managed to debunk certain 275 00:10:05,620 --> 00:10:03,620 UFO photographs by observing this same 276 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:05,630 phenomena the reflection of lights off 277 00:10:10,420 --> 00:10:08,420 of the lens of a camera so long story 278 00:10:12,430 --> 00:10:10,430 short this same sort of reflective 279 00:10:14,170 --> 00:10:12,440 pattern in Reverse and upside down 280 00:10:16,150 --> 00:10:14,180 appears in this photograph which I do 281 00:10:18,670 --> 00:10:16,160 think lends credibility to the objects 282 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:18,680 and maybe a good optical physicist would 283 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:19,130 be able to look 284 00:10:22,930 --> 00:10:20,630 that even be able to determine something 285 00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:22,940 about the distance either between the 286 00:10:27,250 --> 00:10:25,040 objects or possibly their distance from 287 00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:27,260 the camera based on measurements that 288 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:29,120 can be made and the known curvature and 289 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:31,370 size of the camera lens so you know it's 290 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:32,450 interesting because these kind of things 291 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:33,770 when you start digging deeply enough 292 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:35,450 into it it's not just a UFO photograph 293 00:10:39,910 --> 00:10:37,730 it's a photo that tells a story and so 294 00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:39,920 all of these things Ryan were really 295 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:41,540 what I incorporated into this this 296 00:10:45,370 --> 00:10:43,430 lecture which was well-received 297 00:10:47,770 --> 00:10:45,380 considering that a lot of people kind of 298 00:10:51,010 --> 00:10:47,780 these days say why are you worried with 299 00:10:52,750 --> 00:10:51,020 UFO research we know they're here you 300 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:52,760 know Steve ambassadors even said we're 301 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:55,250 beyond the period of having to do you 302 00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:57,650 follow gee we're in the disclosure era 303 00:11:01,390 --> 00:10:59,360 no more need for you if ology we know 304 00:11:02,740 --> 00:11:01,400 they're here I differ and and that we 305 00:11:04,420 --> 00:11:02,750 have social movements that are now 306 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:04,430 saying we don't need to do UFO research 307 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:06,830 is a real problem to me yeah no that's 308 00:11:10,810 --> 00:11:09,110 that's really irritating and Jason and I 309 00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:10,820 say this all the time - it drives us 310 00:11:15,940 --> 00:11:13,760 crazy when we're posting about stuff and 311 00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:15,950 people comment why are you even 312 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:16,640 bothering 313 00:11:21,970 --> 00:11:19,310 we already already oh it's such a common 314 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:21,980 phrase to people in the UFO a sort of 315 00:11:27,070 --> 00:11:24,920 field that this happens and people don't 316 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:27,080 get it that yes you may believe that 317 00:11:31,170 --> 00:11:28,850 they're already here but there are a ton 318 00:11:33,820 --> 00:11:31,180 of people who don't a-and we don't have 319 00:11:36,730 --> 00:11:33,830 really concrete proof that's going to 320 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:36,740 prove to everyone that extraterrestrial 321 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:39,130 life is visiting art and that's why the 322 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:43,100 over generalization - like they are here 323 00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:46,310 so we don't need to probe any further 324 00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:50,390 like okay they just because you are 325 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:53,720 convinced that's some sort of 326 00:11:58,690 --> 00:11:55,190 extraterrestrial is here that means 327 00:12:01,330 --> 00:11:58,700 every UFO we see is that particular race 328 00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:01,340 of extraterrestrial like let's give up 329 00:12:05,710 --> 00:12:03,680 we already know all of the aliens are 330 00:12:08,890 --> 00:12:05,720 here yay we know everything about all of 331 00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:08,900 the aliens it's frustrating we just 332 00:12:13,270 --> 00:12:11,300 throw throw research and curiosity and 333 00:12:15,850 --> 00:12:13,280 exploration out the window because we 334 00:12:18,940 --> 00:12:15,860 may have discovered one thing no not at 335 00:12:23,170 --> 00:12:18,950 all the phenomena is huge there's so 336 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:23,180 many related phenomena to UFOs and we 337 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:25,430 know nothing even if we know a little 338 00:12:29,470 --> 00:12:26,930 bit we still know nothing there's so 339 00:12:31,329 --> 00:12:29,480 much out there to learn so you know I 340 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:31,339 get really frustrated with people who 341 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:32,910 even you know 342 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:35,370 what is considered the most basic level 343 00:12:40,340 --> 00:12:37,889 the lights in the sky they think that 344 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:40,350 there's no point in researching that 345 00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:42,240 looking into that investigating possible 346 00:12:45,470 --> 00:12:43,680 sources for that I think that's 347 00:12:48,829 --> 00:12:45,480 absolutely ridiculous and irresponsible 348 00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:48,839 yeah oh it certainly is you know as a 349 00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:50,220 result of the very sorts of things you 350 00:12:53,660 --> 00:12:51,420 guys are all just pointing out right 351 00:12:55,999 --> 00:12:53,670 there and you know I have over the last 352 00:12:58,639 --> 00:12:56,009 few years but got to kind of ask you 353 00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:58,649 know what am I actually trying to do as 354 00:13:02,749 --> 00:13:00,360 far as UFO research goes now I mean I've 355 00:13:04,699 --> 00:13:02,759 already I've always known that I've 356 00:13:06,590 --> 00:13:04,709 wanted to be a person who tries to look 357 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:06,600 scientifically at actual phenomena you 358 00:13:10,490 --> 00:13:08,130 know I've spent a lot of time at 359 00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,500 locations like Brown Mountain and in 360 00:13:15,259 --> 00:13:12,959 other places where purported sightings 361 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:15,269 are are you know alleged to occur that 362 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:16,470 is one of the problems and always has 363 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:17,910 been with UFOs is that this is a 364 00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:20,250 phenomena that can tend to kind of occur 365 00:13:25,879 --> 00:13:24,000 randomly you you never really know when 366 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:25,889 or where you might need to be at any 367 00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:28,110 given time with you know with the the 368 00:13:31,999 --> 00:13:29,519 likeliest potential that the UFO is 369 00:13:33,259 --> 00:13:32,009 going to show up so and while I believe 370 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:33,269 that for instance the Brown Mountain 371 00:13:37,970 --> 00:13:35,490 lights phenomena is clearly some form of 372 00:13:39,949 --> 00:13:37,980 natural phenomena it is I think a 373 00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:39,959 nonetheless a way that we can learn and 374 00:13:44,269 --> 00:13:42,300 observe and study what appears to be a 375 00:13:46,129 --> 00:13:44,279 form of aerial phenomena that's 376 00:13:48,379 --> 00:13:46,139 illuminative and very much like and 377 00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:48,389 probably constitutes you know a similar 378 00:13:52,129 --> 00:13:50,310 phenomena to what is reported in a lot 379 00:13:54,019 --> 00:13:52,139 of these UFO reports but the thing is is 380 00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:54,029 by the same token I'll look at you know 381 00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:55,199 not to attack someone like Stephen 382 00:13:58,579 --> 00:13:57,180 Bassett I've interviewed him and you 383 00:14:01,519 --> 00:13:58,589 know hung out with him a good bit you 384 00:14:03,079 --> 00:14:01,529 guys have I think Steve's a nice guy I I 385 00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,089 really think I actually appreciate the 386 00:14:07,819 --> 00:14:05,040 work that he does but it's interesting 387 00:14:11,620 --> 00:14:07,829 that suddenly for many UFO research as 388 00:14:13,939 --> 00:14:11,630 it is has become a a political movement 389 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:13,949 when you go to these events and you see 390 00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:15,569 people showing up we know with antennas 391 00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:17,279 and tinfoil hats you know and go in the 392 00:14:20,269 --> 00:14:18,660 dark you know trinkets all over them I 393 00:14:22,129 --> 00:14:20,279 mean you can kind of see that it's a 394 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:22,139 social movement they feel like they're a 395 00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:23,490 part of something bigger than they are 396 00:14:27,949 --> 00:14:25,199 by themselves I think that's what we all 397 00:14:29,929 --> 00:14:27,959 really want I would argue and equal 398 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:29,939 measure that the skeptical movement of 399 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:32,250 today is just as much a social movement 400 00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:35,040 as replete with the same dogmatism the 401 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:38,100 belief oriented UFO research tends to be 402 00:14:41,870 --> 00:14:39,930 associated with which really to me often 403 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:41,880 isn't even research it's merely advocacy 404 00:14:45,799 --> 00:14:44,370 and so as things have come down and this 405 00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:45,809 really is really I think just happened 406 00:14:48,139 --> 00:14:46,740 in the last few months 407 00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:48,149 kind of gotten to a point when we 408 00:14:51,949 --> 00:14:49,470 entered the winter months I got back 409 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:51,959 from England last year speaking at a UFO 410 00:14:56,269 --> 00:14:53,790 conference there in Leeds which was 411 00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:56,279 remarkable in fact I went down to London 412 00:14:59,150 --> 00:14:57,540 afterward and spent a couple of days 413 00:15:01,639 --> 00:14:59,160 with Mark Pilkington director of the 414 00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:01,649 film Mirage man I bring his name up off 415 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:03,750 and then people are like oh wow you're 416 00:15:07,820 --> 00:15:05,610 friends with mark he's one of them well 417 00:15:09,949 --> 00:15:07,830 actually Mark's probably more in line 418 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:09,959 with me in terms of my own thoughts 419 00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:11,610 about the UFO phenomena than many people 420 00:15:15,380 --> 00:15:13,350 I've met maybe with the exception of you 421 00:15:17,449 --> 00:15:15,390 guys he said he's a very warm generous 422 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:17,459 person I think he did a great job with 423 00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:19,770 his book and his documentary at the core 424 00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:21,300 there is something that they want to 425 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:24,180 keep people away from a real truth back 426 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:26,250 in the early eighties it was my job to 427 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:29,310 confuse the UFO community it was very 428 00:15:34,010 --> 00:15:31,290 easy to convince Paul Paul was a world 429 00:15:36,139 --> 00:15:34,020 war two veteran he's very patriotic 430 00:15:38,329 --> 00:15:36,149 he always flew his flag those type of 431 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:38,339 people you can convince that listen you 432 00:15:41,090 --> 00:15:39,510 can't tell anybody else about this 433 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:41,100 because it's you know they begin in the 434 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:45,540 wrong hands would we use perception to 435 00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:48,110 help shroud what we're trying to protect 436 00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:50,550 absolutely if you've got an aerial 437 00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:53,339 platform that is highly advanced and the 438 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:55,380 public who happens to get a glimpse of 439 00:15:58,699 --> 00:15:56,970 the thing if they're convinced that it's 440 00:16:00,650 --> 00:15:58,709 from Venus and there's no way it could 441 00:16:03,260 --> 00:16:00,660 be our military will hey you know that's 442 00:16:06,260 --> 00:16:03,270 that's awesome l guess it's been a cover 443 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:06,270 story in the US for a long time tell the 444 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:09,180 media tell anybody who will listen that 445 00:16:16,699 --> 00:16:13,100 they're using UFOs to cover up advanced 446 00:16:19,069 --> 00:16:16,709 technology when the truth is exactly the 447 00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,079 opposite of the words we're really a 448 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:21,360 byproduct of extraterrestrial 449 00:16:26,630 --> 00:16:23,790 intervention what if we're there farm 450 00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:26,640 animals what if they eat us psychically 451 00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:28,260 I don't know there's a lot of 452 00:16:35,130 --> 00:16:31,230 possibilities there that are not 453 00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:35,140 Dody had this wonderful way to sell it 454 00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:37,870 I'm with the government you cooperate 455 00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:40,870 with us and I'm going to tell you what 456 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:43,620 the government really knows about UFOs 457 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:46,250 deep down in those faults 458 00:16:55,510 --> 00:16:52,690 [Music] 459 00:16:57,340 --> 00:16:55,520 whatever is going on that's happening at 460 00:17:04,609 --> 00:16:57,350 a government level everything that I do 461 00:17:04,619 --> 00:17:08,940 [Music] 462 00:17:13,290 --> 00:17:11,040 let's take one step at a time you're 463 00:17:20,010 --> 00:17:13,300 looking at Richard Doty the professional 464 00:17:21,870 --> 00:17:20,020 dis informant trained to LA I think that 465 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:21,880 he employs the necessary skepticism 466 00:17:25,890 --> 00:17:24,730 without ruling out possibilities and I'm 467 00:17:27,930 --> 00:17:25,900 certain that he thinks that there are 468 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:27,940 strange phenomena and actual quote 469 00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:30,760 unquote UFOs but he doesn't jump to 470 00:17:34,890 --> 00:17:33,070 conclusions without you know facts and 471 00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:34,900 data that merit those kinds of 472 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:37,030 conclusions and so you know for me ever 473 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:38,290 since coming back from England and the 474 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:39,910 very positive experience I had with the 475 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:41,590 English UFO researchers and I have to 476 00:17:45,210 --> 00:17:43,030 say that community does approach this 477 00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,220 subject very differently from the 478 00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:47,200 American audiences it'sit's a very 479 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:49,390 different at times I think even slightly 480 00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:51,130 more intellectual approach that they 481 00:17:54,660 --> 00:17:52,990 employ talk about that a little bit I'm 482 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:54,670 curious to hear about that I'll give you 483 00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:56,170 an example here's kind of what of what I 484 00:17:59,730 --> 00:17:58,000 mean when we do research in the United 485 00:18:01,290 --> 00:17:59,740 States most UFO researchers are 486 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:01,300 journalists and historians you know 487 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:03,370 Richard Dolan who is probably I would 488 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:05,170 say contributed with his to and 489 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:07,330 three-volume set with UFOs in the 490 00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:09,250 national security state he's contributed 491 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:11,080 some of the most meaningful historical 492 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:12,970 commentary to the UFO phenomena now 493 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:14,500 where I differ with rich and he knows 494 00:18:17,730 --> 00:18:16,450 this when we get along great I have a 495 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:17,740 rule and I told this to Linda Moulton 496 00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:19,390 Howe at breakfast while we were out in 497 00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:20,860 California together I said I can love 498 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:22,720 someone dearly and be friends with them 499 00:18:26,010 --> 00:18:24,580 and cherish that friendship for life and 500 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:26,020 I may not agree with a word they say 501 00:18:29,670 --> 00:18:27,730 that's kind of how I feel with a lot of 502 00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:29,680 people in the UFO community I don't 503 00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:32,950 agree 100% with probably anybody but 504 00:18:36,810 --> 00:18:34,990 that doesn't make them an enemy you know 505 00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:36,820 I find that I have more common ground 506 00:18:41,970 --> 00:18:39,940 with people then well of course you know 507 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:41,980 folks I guess on the debunkers side of a 508 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:43,090 skeptic thing and we'll come back around 509 00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:45,490 to that in America though it is 510 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:47,260 primarily kind of investigative 511 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:49,660 journalism and historical research part 512 00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:51,130 of the reason I think that is is because 513 00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:52,720 of the difficult in being able to get to 514 00:18:57,420 --> 00:18:55,270 a site and spot a UFO and know when 515 00:18:59,280 --> 00:18:57,430 one's going to show up so the research 516 00:19:01,050 --> 00:18:59,290 that ends up going on although it can be 517 00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:01,060 scientific is often done after the fact 518 00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,430 which usually is reporting on the case 519 00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:04,960 and what the witnesses said that they 520 00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:06,880 saw much like I'm a journalist would do 521 00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:09,280 or collection and interpretation of a 522 00:19:12,510 --> 00:19:11,350 broader you know swath of data collected 523 00:19:14,190 --> 00:19:12,520 over the years which is really kind of 524 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:14,200 what the historian does scientists often 525 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:16,390 do this but even if you look at Stanton 526 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:17,950 Friedman when I spoke with him on our 527 00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:19,930 way up there to Big Bear in the car I 528 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:22,000 said you know you're a nuclear physicist 529 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:22,690 and a person who 530 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:24,820 is almost really played the role of an 531 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:26,410 investigative historian and journalist 532 00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:27,490 by going to the National Archives 533 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:29,440 digging up files and things like this 534 00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:30,550 you know that's not necessarily 535 00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:32,800 scientific work he is a journalist and a 536 00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:34,390 researcher and a writer who is informed 537 00:19:38,940 --> 00:19:37,150 by his you know extensive background in 538 00:19:40,710 --> 00:19:38,950 nuclear physics as a scientist which has 539 00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:40,720 made him unique among researchers in 540 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:43,270 England and I think many people here in 541 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:44,770 the United States would kind of look at 542 00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:46,330 English researchers as being more 543 00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:48,880 skeptical but I find that those 544 00:19:53,730 --> 00:19:50,740 researchers yes they are somewhat more 545 00:19:55,950 --> 00:19:53,740 skeptical rather than leaping toward the 546 00:19:57,420 --> 00:19:55,960 quote unquote UFO equals alien 547 00:19:59,820 --> 00:19:57,430 convention of extraterrestrial 548 00:20:02,810 --> 00:19:59,830 hypotheses English researchers as I find 549 00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:02,820 have gravitated largely toward 550 00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:04,870 attempting to look for natural and 551 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:06,820 man-made causes that may constitute you 552 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:09,250 falah djegal phenomenon the Official 553 00:20:12,450 --> 00:20:11,110 Secrets Act I guess has also been more 554 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:12,460 conducive to the release of UFO 555 00:20:16,350 --> 00:20:14,770 documents from the mod as our friend 556 00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:16,360 Nick Pope will tell us about it's first 557 00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:17,830 of all find out where you stand on the 558 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:20,950 issues of UFOs you were you were 559 00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:22,510 skeptical when you first took the job 560 00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:24,340 are you still skeptical I'm less 561 00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:27,120 skeptical than I was I think you know 562 00:20:31,770 --> 00:20:29,620 looking at the sorts of interesting 563 00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:31,780 reports in these files the the ones from 564 00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:33,790 police officers pilots military 565 00:20:38,670 --> 00:20:36,700 personnel the ones tracked on radar you 566 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:38,680 know there's this material there that 567 00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:40,420 certainly makes me think twice it's not 568 00:20:44,610 --> 00:20:42,580 all misidentifications of aircraft 569 00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:44,620 lights and weather balloons if any one 570 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:46,420 report that stands out as extraordinary 571 00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:49,330 or perhaps most convincing one the new 572 00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:51,400 files that I particularly like is a 573 00:20:57,180 --> 00:20:54,220 radar sighting where an object traveled 574 00:20:59,070 --> 00:20:57,190 12 10 nautical miles in 12 seconds about 575 00:21:02,970 --> 00:20:59,080 three and a half thousand miles an hour 576 00:21:05,370 --> 00:21:02,980 and that's on a military radar so you 577 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:05,380 know it takes the evidence to a whole 578 00:21:08,790 --> 00:21:07,360 level over and above just eyewitness 579 00:21:10,170 --> 00:21:08,800 testimony it could that be explained 580 00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:10,180 away or by something that ball lightning 581 00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:12,280 with that sharp on on a radar it really 582 00:21:16,620 --> 00:21:14,500 shouldn't I mean the assessment given at 583 00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:16,630 the time and of course science actually 584 00:21:20,370 --> 00:21:18,880 isn't quite sure about ball lightning so 585 00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:20,380 that's almost explaining one mystery 586 00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:22,600 with another but the military radar 587 00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:24,880 operators said well you know it looks 588 00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:27,070 like a real solid return what about this 589 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:29,740 case in in Suffolk Rd at the mid US 590 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:31,300 military airbase which people talk about 591 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:33,450 as being Britain's Roswell yeah 592 00:21:39,049 --> 00:21:36,450 Rendlesham forest from december 1980 but 593 00:21:40,879 --> 00:21:39,059 there are a few new papers on this in 594 00:21:43,220 --> 00:21:40,889 the files this was extraordinary because 595 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:43,230 a UFO landed and was seen by dozens of 596 00:21:47,810 --> 00:21:45,750 military witnesses and critically they 597 00:21:51,139 --> 00:21:47,820 took a Geiger counter to the landing 598 00:21:54,649 --> 00:21:51,149 site after this thing had gone and the 599 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:54,659 radiation levels that they discovered 600 00:21:59,330 --> 00:21:57,450 the mo DS Defense Intelligence staff 601 00:22:00,830 --> 00:21:59,340 said that they seemed significantly 602 00:22:01,879 --> 00:22:00,840 higher than background but the other 603 00:22:03,649 --> 00:22:01,889 thing too that's interesting is that 604 00:22:05,060 --> 00:22:03,659 this conference I spoke out that my 605 00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:05,070 friend Anthony Beckett put on he's a 606 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:07,529 chemist by trade I got to his house and 607 00:22:12,169 --> 00:22:09,960 he had Harvey Rutledge's book what was 608 00:22:13,789 --> 00:22:12,179 the the book it's called up project 609 00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:13,799 identification the first scientific fuel 610 00:22:18,529 --> 00:22:15,870 study of UFO phenomena again a 611 00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:18,539 physicists aims at trying to study UFOs 612 00:22:22,940 --> 00:22:20,700 he had tragedy and hope by professor 613 00:22:24,649 --> 00:22:22,950 carroll quigley you know these are the 614 00:22:26,570 --> 00:22:24,659 kind of books in his UFO library that 615 00:22:28,460 --> 00:22:26,580 was immediately a great experience and 616 00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:28,470 his focus was much like mine he was 617 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:29,760 trying to understand earth lights and 618 00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:31,470 her flight phenomena but he's putting on 619 00:22:36,169 --> 00:22:32,630 a conference called the british 620 00:22:38,060 --> 00:22:36,179 Exopolitics summit of all things despite 621 00:22:40,250 --> 00:22:38,070 the term XO politics being in the name 622 00:22:41,659 --> 00:22:40,260 of all the subjects that repeatedly came 623 00:22:44,029 --> 00:22:41,669 up throughout the course of the weekend 624 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:44,039 the one pre-eminently was the secret 625 00:22:49,370 --> 00:22:46,370 space program this idea about some 626 00:22:51,049 --> 00:22:49,380 technology whether or not influenced by 627 00:22:53,810 --> 00:22:51,059 something from someplace else but a 628 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:53,820 technology that is from here primarily 629 00:22:58,009 --> 00:22:56,010 and which is built by us so it's 630 00:22:59,690 --> 00:22:58,019 interesting that in england they do tend 631 00:23:01,700 --> 00:22:59,700 to kind of have a little more of a 632 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:01,710 down-to-earth I think perspective on 633 00:23:05,389 --> 00:23:03,330 what UFOs may be whereas here in the 634 00:23:07,399 --> 00:23:05,399 United States we do have social 635 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:07,409 movements political movements even which 636 00:23:11,299 --> 00:23:09,210 are aiming to get the release of the 637 00:23:12,379 --> 00:23:11,309 extra-terrestrial data which I think 638 00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:12,389 really we need a little bit more 639 00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:13,919 information to be able to assume that 640 00:23:16,639 --> 00:23:15,120 that is indeed with the government's 641 00:23:19,370 --> 00:23:16,649 hiding I'm sure they're hiding something 642 00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:19,380 I'm not sure it's alien well Mike aui 643 00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:22,529 speaking of Exopolitics I I read a 644 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:25,260 recent article of yours I don't know 645 00:23:30,919 --> 00:23:27,870 exactly how recent about you know sort 646 00:23:33,019 --> 00:23:30,929 of science in the UFO phenomenon and how 647 00:23:35,389 --> 00:23:33,029 that can be pitted against philosophy 648 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:35,399 would you care to elaborate on how you 649 00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:37,730 feel philosophy could help solve some 650 00:23:42,619 --> 00:23:40,590 possibly some of these mysteries or your 651 00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:42,629 thoughts in general on philosophy either 652 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:46,740 being dead or or a way to look further 653 00:23:48,919 --> 00:23:47,100 into 654 00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:48,929 these phenomenon yeah that's a good 655 00:23:53,180 --> 00:23:50,580 question Ryan let me tell you this okay 656 00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:53,190 so we know sir Stephen Hawking physicist 657 00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:54,720 who I admire greatly and I've read a 658 00:23:57,799 --> 00:23:56,400 number of his books even though a lot of 659 00:23:59,390 --> 00:23:57,809 them he refers to them as being 660 00:24:00,529 --> 00:23:59,400 unreadable because the technical matter 661 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:00,539 and I'm not talking about a brief 662 00:24:03,289 --> 00:24:02,010 history of time it's his other stuff 663 00:24:05,570 --> 00:24:03,299 that he wrote before that that is indeed 664 00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:05,580 very much more technically oriented and 665 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:06,870 one has to push themselves through it 666 00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:08,010 and often be able to have reference 667 00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:10,950 materials on hand to do so but and I 668 00:24:15,289 --> 00:24:12,600 don't claim to be able to understand all 669 00:24:17,299 --> 00:24:15,299 of it but I am a student of the sciences 670 00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:17,309 self-taught by the way largely you know 671 00:24:21,289 --> 00:24:18,480 I've got a little a little chemistry 672 00:24:23,270 --> 00:24:21,299 hobby you know lab here at the graylien 673 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,280 bunker in fact and I am very serious 674 00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:25,440 about my scientific pursuits as a hobby 675 00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:28,320 and and is a supplement to my research 676 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:30,120 now that said you know Hawking is 677 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:31,950 someone who by virtue of being a 678 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:34,020 brilliant physic you know a physical 679 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:36,330 scientist he will say that philosophy is 680 00:24:41,419 --> 00:24:38,250 dead right he specifically said on the 681 00:24:43,399 --> 00:24:41,429 last couple of pages in a brief history 682 00:24:45,620 --> 00:24:43,409 of time but the most well-known and 683 00:24:48,169 --> 00:24:45,630 eminent philosopher of his day Ludwig 684 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:48,179 Wittgenstein said that all that was left 685 00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:49,650 for philosophers to study was language 686 00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:52,080 that I don't know is I don't know if 687 00:24:55,399 --> 00:24:53,940 that's really a fair statement for him 688 00:24:56,930 --> 00:24:55,409 to say that language is dead and reason 689 00:24:58,580 --> 00:24:56,940 why is because of Vick interesting well 690 00:25:00,200 --> 00:24:58,590 let's just point out that Vick enstein 691 00:25:03,289 --> 00:25:00,210 was a professor of course at Cambridge 692 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:03,299 Hawking of course may not have taken 693 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:05,010 into consideration that victims team was 694 00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:07,770 the most visible philosopher to him by 695 00:25:12,289 --> 00:25:09,990 virtue of where he was and maybe also in 696 00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:12,299 part due to his disabilities but I've 697 00:25:16,909 --> 00:25:14,340 also point out that Vick enstein was no 698 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:16,919 less influential his tract Tata was a 699 00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:18,809 treatise all on language and what he was 700 00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:20,220 really saying was not that philosophers 701 00:25:24,409 --> 00:25:22,110 only need to study language he was 702 00:25:25,850 --> 00:25:24,419 saying that behind every word if we 703 00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:25,860 break down or even remove language 704 00:25:30,409 --> 00:25:28,620 concepts exist and that look words are 705 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:30,419 our feeble attempts at trying to express 706 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:32,250 concepts which remain that are deeper 707 00:25:36,289 --> 00:25:35,130 and in that sense we can also see that 708 00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:36,299 when someone says something like 709 00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:37,980 philosophy is dead well let's think what 710 00:25:41,659 --> 00:25:39,360 do you mean by philosophy do you mean 711 00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:41,669 philosophy in total give me in classical 712 00:25:45,740 --> 00:25:44,220 philosophy epistemology and ethics or 713 00:25:47,779 --> 00:25:45,750 morals I would not like to think that 714 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:47,789 that's dead I think the proper question 715 00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:49,890 to ask is if one says philosophy is dead 716 00:25:54,169 --> 00:25:51,480 have we asked a philosopher what he 717 00:25:56,060 --> 00:25:54,179 thinks about that or mr. Steven most 718 00:25:57,740 --> 00:25:56,070 qualified to make a statement along 719 00:26:01,250 --> 00:25:57,750 those lines let's get more to the point 720 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:01,260 he also says about UFOs that you 721 00:26:05,030 --> 00:26:02,910 he discounts in the search for alien 722 00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:05,040 life because why if they existed where 723 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:06,420 they only showed themselves to cranks 724 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:08,370 and weirdos now of course we know from 725 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:10,110 the work of journalists the likes of 726 00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:12,570 Leslie Kane and many others over the 727 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:14,910 years that only cranks and weirdos see 728 00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:16,890 UFOs we know of course that going back 729 00:26:20,570 --> 00:26:18,870 to the Bluebook era that only cranks and 730 00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:20,580 weirdos we're seeing UFOs when we 731 00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:21,990 actually had government officials 732 00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:23,520 you know Captain Jack pocket of 733 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:25,500 Strategic Air Command 1946 prior to 734 00:26:29,030 --> 00:26:27,690 Kenneth Arnold reported a near mid-air 735 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:29,040 collision on his way to MacDill Air 736 00:26:33,050 --> 00:26:31,110 Force Base in the summer of that year he 737 00:26:35,270 --> 00:26:33,060 said it was a large rocket like fuselage 738 00:26:37,340 --> 00:26:35,280 with no wings two illuminated rows of 739 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:37,350 Windows the the size roughly doubled the 740 00:26:41,330 --> 00:26:39,210 size of the fuselage of a b-17 bomber 741 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:41,340 and that it was producing a thick red 742 00:26:45,230 --> 00:26:43,050 plume of smoke as it passed by his 743 00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:45,240 aircraft nearly colliding with him going 744 00:26:50,150 --> 00:26:47,160 a thousand miles an hour he estimated he 745 00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:50,160 signed a sworn affidavit about this 746 00:26:53,210 --> 00:26:51,870 which of course a breath after the 747 00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:53,220 Second World War this would have been of 748 00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:55,470 highest national security interest that 749 00:26:58,820 --> 00:26:57,390 there might be what was at that time and 750 00:27:01,040 --> 00:26:58,830 could have only been interpreted as 751 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:01,050 being possibly an enemy craft this would 752 00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:02,370 have been a horrible thing for him to 753 00:27:07,580 --> 00:27:04,590 hoax or to live out or to make up crank 754 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:07,590 weirdo I think not the reason that we 755 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:09,890 need philosophy when it comes to UFOs is 756 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:14,130 because science is really what we use it 757 00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:16,250 is the our best attempt today at 758 00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:19,500 gathering data and interpreting the 759 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:21,780 natural world around us but it began 760 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:24,210 with philosophy philosophy and logical 761 00:27:29,330 --> 00:27:27,570 inquiry was the the primordial pool from 762 00:27:31,940 --> 00:27:29,340 which the slime eventually crawled that 763 00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:31,950 became modern science there are still 764 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:34,830 questions which for instance if the 765 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:36,510 universe had a beginning what came 766 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:38,310 before that now Hawking will be quick to 767 00:27:42,590 --> 00:27:40,530 tell you that since that is not 768 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:42,600 something that science can probably 769 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:44,730 determine that thus is not a question 770 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:47,010 that science seeks to explain 771 00:27:51,530 --> 00:27:49,410 thus you know all such things is you 772 00:27:53,770 --> 00:27:51,540 know and after life death God you know 773 00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:53,780 all of these kinds of concepts are are 774 00:27:59,330 --> 00:27:56,430 likened to being questions that science 775 00:28:00,590 --> 00:27:59,340 does not seek to address now if science 776 00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:00,600 does not seek to address these questions 777 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:02,220 but they are nonetheless relevant and 778 00:28:08,210 --> 00:28:05,190 meaningful to us as thinking creatures 779 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:08,220 well it is it fair to say that no one 780 00:28:12,020 --> 00:28:09,810 should address those questions or merely 781 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:12,030 that if science doesn't perhaps someone 782 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:14,130 else should hence the philosopher 783 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:15,930 I think there's very easily a case to be 784 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:17,810 made that philosophy is still important 785 00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:19,770 philosophy working in conjunction with 786 00:28:24,380 --> 00:28:22,020 science and mathematics can help kind of 787 00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:24,390 temper science and move it in a 788 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:26,790 productive direction and I think that an 789 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:29,460 equal measure science at times can order 790 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:32,090 other scientists can tend to get so 791 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:36,450 dogmatic and also so skeptical that the 792 00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:38,370 spirit of innovation potentially might 793 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:39,900 be hindered by a scientist who is not 794 00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:41,490 willing to think enough outside the box 795 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:43,830 so we do need philosophy and as it 796 00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:45,330 applies to UFOs when a scientist 797 00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:47,670 probably like they'd say about creation 798 00:28:53,450 --> 00:28:50,940 you know God death whatever you know 799 00:28:55,550 --> 00:28:53,460 that well UFOs on us a subject that 800 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:55,560 science seeks to address well perhaps a 801 00:28:58,370 --> 00:28:57,090 philosopher should ask a scientist why 802 00:29:00,530 --> 00:28:58,380 do you think that you know if it's a 803 00:29:02,270 --> 00:29:00,540 physical tangible apparent phenomenon in 804 00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:02,280 our world what about that should science 805 00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:04,470 not seek to address hence I have 806 00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:06,600 fundamentally come back to the point of 807 00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:08,310 thinking that philosophy is important in 808 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:10,950 relation to UFOs so you know whether or 809 00:29:13,790 --> 00:29:11,970 not you want to call me a UFO 810 00:29:14,990 --> 00:29:13,800 philosopher 811 00:29:16,660 --> 00:29:15,000 it's a good point though I mean I think 812 00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:16,670 it was Hynek who said you know 813 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:18,960 scientists often forget that there will 814 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:21,810 be a 22nd century there'll be a 30th 815 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:24,210 century they'll be so on and so on and 816 00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:26,970 that you know there's there are things 817 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:29,190 yet to be discovered and sometimes 818 00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:31,290 science can hinder that soon and Ronal 819 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:32,990 cells are really quickly that I saw a 820 00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:35,850 psycarticles well SC I now but you know 821 00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:37,260 formally the committee for scientific 822 00:29:40,610 --> 00:29:38,580 investigation of claims to paranormal 823 00:29:43,550 --> 00:29:40,620 and the article was was called the 824 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:43,560 secret life of J Allen Hynek in it the 825 00:29:46,670 --> 00:29:44,970 first day issue took with him was the 826 00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,680 fact that when he was a young teenager 827 00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:48,000 and rather than going out and playing 828 00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:50,190 sports and stuff like everybody else he 829 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:51,630 had saved up money and bought a copy of 830 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:53,580 Manley Palmer halls the secret teaching 831 00:29:58,190 --> 00:29:55,290 of all ages I want to copy that book and 832 00:30:01,010 --> 00:29:58,200 in in terms of being a book on 833 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:01,020 Hermeticism and philosophy and as it 834 00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:03,570 relates to occult traditions worldwide I 835 00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,500 mean I think it's one of the most 836 00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:06,000 valuable books that's been written if 837 00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:07,110 you're interested in that kind of thing 838 00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:09,300 then a skeptical organization would use 839 00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:11,580 that as a point against an astronomer a 840 00:30:15,910 --> 00:30:14,040 man who after of course purchasing this 841 00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:15,920 book and trying to further himself 842 00:30:19,910 --> 00:30:17,760 intellectually at a young age then of 843 00:30:21,620 --> 00:30:19,920 course he enters the sciences with hopes 844 00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:21,630 of trying to better understand the 845 00:30:24,410 --> 00:30:23,100 unknown mysteries of the world you know 846 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:24,420 that this would be a point of criticism 847 00:30:27,860 --> 00:30:26,850 is just it's just ridiculous to me the 848 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:27,870 modern skeptic 849 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:30,090 atheist movement also a social movement 850 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:32,610 which is informed by the ideology of the 851 00:30:37,130 --> 00:30:34,650 mass not by the individual in my opinion 852 00:30:39,470 --> 00:30:37,140 it's just a shameful that skeptics have 853 00:30:41,690 --> 00:30:39,480 become so skeptical that they won't even 854 00:30:43,070 --> 00:30:41,700 allow for an astronomer to read about 855 00:30:44,750 --> 00:30:43,080 such things as the occult and 856 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:44,760 hermeticism these things they may not be 857 00:30:48,020 --> 00:30:46,530 directly relevant to a physicist or an 858 00:30:50,030 --> 00:30:48,030 astronomer but that doesn't mean that 859 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:50,040 these subjects are irrelevant altogether 860 00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:52,170 I think it's just disgraceful the way 861 00:30:57,049 --> 00:30:53,670 that the so-called skeptic movement 862 00:31:00,200 --> 00:30:57,059 today has become one that says if 90% of 863 00:31:02,390 --> 00:31:00,210 all UFOs can be explained as many would 864 00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:02,400 agree by the way then why not 100% 865 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:04,440 that's their whole modus operandi when 866 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:06,090 it comes to this subject if we can 867 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:06,750 explain Nonnie 868 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:08,730 we can explain 100 percent I think 869 00:31:12,590 --> 00:31:10,290 therefore it is not it's like reverse 870 00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:12,600 cartesianism and frankly it's bad 871 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:15,150 science well said well Mike I know that 872 00:31:19,940 --> 00:31:17,010 philosophy is something that occupies a 873 00:31:22,490 --> 00:31:19,950 pretty large chunk of your mind and some 874 00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:22,500 that you talk about a lot and you're a 875 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:24,630 thinker you'd like to think probably as 876 00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:25,710 much as you like to talk and that's 877 00:31:33,169 --> 00:31:30,350 probably a good thing that's right so 878 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:33,179 talk about our audience know where they 879 00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:34,650 can go to listen to more of your 880 00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:36,960 philosophizing as well as your other 881 00:31:40,850 --> 00:31:38,460 content that you're putting out on a 882 00:31:42,770 --> 00:31:40,860 regular basis yeah well for those who 883 00:31:44,270 --> 00:31:42,780 haven't gotten enough as it is this 884 00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:44,280 might be enough to last anybody a year 885 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:45,390 just the short time we spent together 886 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:48,210 today and thank you for that but if 887 00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:49,650 people would like to learn more about me 888 00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:52,020 my podcast is the graylien report the 889 00:31:57,770 --> 00:31:55,740 website is Gral ien report calm and then 890 00:31:59,530 --> 00:31:57,780 there's my website micah hanks common 891 00:32:02,180 --> 00:31:59,540 and you know as far as podcasts go 892 00:32:03,980 --> 00:32:02,190 there's also the maverick podcasting 893 00:32:06,530 --> 00:32:03,990 website yeah let me think your maverick 894 00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:06,540 podcasting org so those are the ways to 895 00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:07,740 find me and of course people can always 896 00:32:12,049 --> 00:32:09,840 email me info at Micah Hanks comm or 897 00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:12,059 follow me on Twitter at Micah Hanks I've 898 00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:13,740 got my own name isn't that cool 899 00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:15,900 alright Micah it's been fun thanks for 900 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:17,910 hanging out with this buddy that's it 901 00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:19,650 for this week's episode again you could 902 00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:22,020 find Micah Hanks hosting his weekly show 903 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:25,440 the graylien report available on the kgr 904 00:32:31,070 --> 00:32:28,470 a radio network and in podcast form as 905 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:31,080 well be sure to visit kg are a radio 906 00:32:36,610 --> 00:32:34,700 calm and graylien report.com 907 00:32:38,410 --> 00:32:36,620 to learn more about Jason McClellan and 908 00:32:41,170 --> 00:32:38,420 Maureen Elsberry zerk and to subscribe 909 00:32:45,070 --> 00:32:41,180 to the unknown podcast be sure to visit 910 00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:45,080 rogue planet TV my thanks as always to 911 00:32:49,660 --> 00:32:47,240 all patreon subscribers for your monthly 912 00:32:51,670 --> 00:32:49,670 contributions to the show if you'd like 913 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:51,680 to help support the show and receive 914 00:32:56,740 --> 00:32:53,870 many rewards at many different levels 915 00:32:58,450 --> 00:32:56,750 consider becoming a patron today to 916 00:33:02,260 --> 00:32:58,460 learn more and to subscribe visit 917 00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:02,270 patreon.com slash somewhere skies we're 918 00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:04,310 on twitter at somewhere skies and 919 00:33:10,150 --> 00:33:07,430 instagram at somewhere skies pod all 920 00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:10,160 past episodes articles and contact 921 00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:12,470 information can all be found at the 922 00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:14,750 official web site somewhere in the skies 923 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:17,600 dot-com thank you for joining me this 924 00:33:22,030 --> 00:33:20,090 week and remember keep your feet on the 925 00:33:23,950 --> 00:33:22,040 ground but never stop searching 926 00:33:38,159 --> 00:33:23,960 somewhere in the skies 927 00:33:40,619 --> 00:33:38,169 [Music] 928 00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:40,629 somewhere in the skies is produced by 929 00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:42,399 Third Kind productions in association 930 00:33:46,109 --> 00:33:44,320 with the entertainment one podcast